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Beijing tackles transit, with stunning results
By Bill Schiller
Asia Bureau
BEIJING—As Toronto wrestles with its transit future, the Beijing subway system did something stunning last week: it cut the ribbons on five new lines and 108 kilometres of new track — all in a single day.
That's equal to one and a half times Toronto's entire Toronto subway system.
The new lines and dozens of sparkling new stations came on stream last Thursday to broad acclaim.
In Toronto, the TTC might claim to be “The Better Way,” but here in Beijing the operative slogan seems to be “Just do it.”
There's nothing tentative about Beijing's approach.
Faced with serious gridlock — just like Toronto, but on a monumental scale — Beijing has decided to move aggressively. There is a sudden sense of urgency about public transport here.
The new lines, with a price tag of $9.4 billion, were not supposed to be completed until 2012. But with a transportation crisis on their hands, transit authorities moved that date forward.
They wanted these feeders from the suburbs completed so that they can turn their attention to building more lines in the city centre, where they're most crucially needed.
With last week's new additions, the subway network grew to 336 kilometres from 228 overnight. At the same time, a single fare costs 30 cents — a tenth of the cost of a trip on the TTC.
And there's more expansion in the works, the Beijing Mass Transit Railway Operation Corp. says. The network will grow to more than 700 kilometres — 10 times that of Toronto's current system — by 2020.
“We intend to bring on more new track every year for the next five years,” says Jia Peng, chief spokesman for the transit corporation. “We have the technology, we have the funds; the only thing we don't have much of is time — and time is crucial.
“We have got to ease Beijing's traffic congestion problem.”
Last year more than 2,000 new cars flooded into Beijing's streets and highways each day, for a total of nearly 800,000 new vehicles in 2010.
Desperate to curb congestion in the city, the government announced it will restrict new car sales in Beijing this year to just 20,000 per month, holding a monthly public lottery for the privilege of buying one. Annual sales in the capital in 2011 will be capped at 240,000.
In a liberal democracy such a move to restrict private purchases might trigger riots in the car-congested streets. Not in authoritarian China. In the first five days after the car lottery opened, more than 100,000 Beijingers dutifully filled out applications.
And as uncomfortable as it might be for Toronto Mayor Rob Ford to be compared with those in the Communist camp, he has something in common with Beijing's masters: like him, they are averse to light rail systems.
Ford doesn't want them because he believes they'll clog and constrict traffic on Toronto's streets. Beijing doesn't want them because they can't do the job.
“We are facing an urgent need to build a system that is capable of carrying the greatest number of passengers possible,” says Jia.
With a ridership rate now exceeding five million passenger trips per day and growing (Toronto hovers just below one million), Beijing is looking at acquiring even larger trains for the future, he says.
Clearly, the path to Beijing's transit future will glide on heavy, not light, rail. And all economic indicators suggest that future will be strong.
But who could have guessed that a country that was so far behind could come back so far, so fast?
When it was first unveiled in 1954, Toronto's first subway line was a powerful symbol: smooth and speedy transport in a growing modern metropolis.
At that time, Mao Zedong led an impoverished China. He had only begun to dream of an underground system — mainly for defence purposes in the event of a military attack. Beijing's subway opened to limited travel in the late 1960s, but not to the general public until 1971.
Mao's death in 1976 and the emergence of reformer Deng Xiaoping brought modernization and expansion to Beijing's subway. Then, in the lead-up to the 2008 Summer Olympics, Beijing's subway grew from four to nine lines.
When former Toronto mayor David Miller visited here in April that year, he marvelled at China's ability to draw up plans and swiftly follow through. “The Chinese don't wait,” he said. “They act.”
One of the reasons for that speed, of course, is a planning process that is less transparent than that in Canada. Environmental assessments for public projects in Canada, for example, can get bogged down in hearings for months and sometimes years, whereas here they are conducted by the state's own agencies with little if any public input.
The government is planner, builder and arbiter all in one.
Authoritarian rule comes with its privileges. But “safety” remains paramount, the transit corporation's Jia emphasizes.
Other factors in Beijing's speed are cheaper labour and more technological investment. Beijing has scores of tunnel-boring machines while the TTC has four on order for its 8.6-kilometre Spadina subway extension, expected to be in service in 2015.
The TTC standard estimate for subways is about $300 million per kilometre. Beijing paid $110 million for its new lines. Few here would argue with the benefits.
In the golden light of late afternoon one recent weekday, 70-year-old grandfather Lu Shuxun stepped from the glistening new Xiaohongmen subway station on the newly minted Yizhuang line with his 5-year-old granddaughter, Lingyi. He had only praise for the new line.
He'd just picked up Lingyi from her preschool in once-distant Fangzhuang. “Normally, the trip by bus would take at least an hour,” said Lu, clutching his smiling grandchild's pink knapsack. “But with traffic jams, a one-way trip could take as long as 90 minutes. Today it was 20. It's a lot better for us now that they've opened this line.”
It also speaks to planning.
Twenty years from now, when China is expected to have the world's largest economy and rule the world, Lingyi herself might use this line to commute to work in Beijing.
Beijing tackles transit, with stunning results
By Bill Schiller
Asia Bureau
BEIJING—As Toronto wrestles with its transit future, the Beijing subway system did something stunning last week: it cut the ribbons on five new lines and 108 kilometres of new track — all in a single day.
That's equal to one and a half times Toronto's entire Toronto subway system.
The new lines and dozens of sparkling new stations came on stream last Thursday to broad acclaim.
In Toronto, the TTC might claim to be “The Better Way,” but here in Beijing the operative slogan seems to be “Just do it.”
There's nothing tentative about Beijing's approach.
Faced with serious gridlock — just like Toronto, but on a monumental scale — Beijing has decided to move aggressively. There is a sudden sense of urgency about public transport here.
The new lines, with a price tag of $9.4 billion, were not supposed to be completed until 2012. But with a transportation crisis on their hands, transit authorities moved that date forward.
They wanted these feeders from the suburbs completed so that they can turn their attention to building more lines in the city centre, where they're most crucially needed.
With last week's new additions, the subway network grew to 336 kilometres from 228 overnight. At the same time, a single fare costs 30 cents — a tenth of the cost of a trip on the TTC.
And there's more expansion in the works, the Beijing Mass Transit Railway Operation Corp. says. The network will grow to more than 700 kilometres — 10 times that of Toronto's current system — by 2020.
“We intend to bring on more new track every year for the next five years,” says Jia Peng, chief spokesman for the transit corporation. “We have the technology, we have the funds; the only thing we don't have much of is time — and time is crucial.
“We have got to ease Beijing's traffic congestion problem.”
Last year more than 2,000 new cars flooded into Beijing's streets and highways each day, for a total of nearly 800,000 new vehicles in 2010.
Desperate to curb congestion in the city, the government announced it will restrict new car sales in Beijing this year to just 20,000 per month, holding a monthly public lottery for the privilege of buying one. Annual sales in the capital in 2011 will be capped at 240,000.
In a liberal democracy such a move to restrict private purchases might trigger riots in the car-congested streets. Not in authoritarian China. In the first five days after the car lottery opened, more than 100,000 Beijingers dutifully filled out applications.
And as uncomfortable as it might be for Toronto Mayor Rob Ford to be compared with those in the Communist camp, he has something in common with Beijing's masters: like him, they are averse to light rail systems.
Ford doesn't want them because he believes they'll clog and constrict traffic on Toronto's streets. Beijing doesn't want them because they can't do the job.
“We are facing an urgent need to build a system that is capable of carrying the greatest number of passengers possible,” says Jia.
With a ridership rate now exceeding five million passenger trips per day and growing (Toronto hovers just below one million), Beijing is looking at acquiring even larger trains for the future, he says.
Clearly, the path to Beijing's transit future will glide on heavy, not light, rail. And all economic indicators suggest that future will be strong.
But who could have guessed that a country that was so far behind could come back so far, so fast?
When it was first unveiled in 1954, Toronto's first subway line was a powerful symbol: smooth and speedy transport in a growing modern metropolis.
At that time, Mao Zedong led an impoverished China. He had only begun to dream of an underground system — mainly for defence purposes in the event of a military attack. Beijing's subway opened to limited travel in the late 1960s, but not to the general public until 1971.
Mao's death in 1976 and the emergence of reformer Deng Xiaoping brought modernization and expansion to Beijing's subway. Then, in the lead-up to the 2008 Summer Olympics, Beijing's subway grew from four to nine lines.
When former Toronto mayor David Miller visited here in April that year, he marvelled at China's ability to draw up plans and swiftly follow through. “The Chinese don't wait,” he said. “They act.”
One of the reasons for that speed, of course, is a planning process that is less transparent than that in Canada. Environmental assessments for public projects in Canada, for example, can get bogged down in hearings for months and sometimes years, whereas here they are conducted by the state's own agencies with little if any public input.
The government is planner, builder and arbiter all in one.
Authoritarian rule comes with its privileges. But “safety” remains paramount, the transit corporation's Jia emphasizes.
Other factors in Beijing's speed are cheaper labour and more technological investment. Beijing has scores of tunnel-boring machines while the TTC has four on order for its 8.6-kilometre Spadina subway extension, expected to be in service in 2015.
The TTC standard estimate for subways is about $300 million per kilometre. Beijing paid $110 million for its new lines. Few here would argue with the benefits.
In the golden light of late afternoon one recent weekday, 70-year-old grandfather Lu Shuxun stepped from the glistening new Xiaohongmen subway station on the newly minted Yizhuang line with his 5-year-old granddaughter, Lingyi. He had only praise for the new line.
He'd just picked up Lingyi from her preschool in once-distant Fangzhuang. “Normally, the trip by bus would take at least an hour,” said Lu, clutching his smiling grandchild's pink knapsack. “But with traffic jams, a one-way trip could take as long as 90 minutes. Today it was 20. It's a lot better for us now that they've opened this line.”
It also speaks to planning.
Twenty years from now, when China is expected to have the world's largest economy and rule the world, Lingyi herself might use this line to commute to work in Beijing.
vucko, nije 110 miliona za 108 kilometara, mada moze tako da se shvati iz teksta. Toronto je platio 300 miliona po kilometru, a na ovom projektu osam novih linija Peking je platio 110. Vidis da gore u tekstu pise da je sve ukupno kostalo 9,4 milijardi dolara.
Pogresio sam 
Gradonacelnik o metrou
Metro
Mi ćemo ove i naredne godine da uradimo sve što je neophodno da bi mogli da počnemo da gradimo metro. Rekao sam već više puta, u Beogradu se neće ni uličica ni metro početi da rade da bi se neko slikao i rekao ‘mi sada kopamo’. Nećemo novi Prokop, nećemo nove obilaznice oko Beograda, nećemo kilometre autoputa koji nikako da se završi. Kada počnemo nešto u Beogradu da radimo kažemo "danas počinjemo, ovako se finansira, tada je gotovo", i do sada ništa nismo slagali. I to je prednost Beograda u odnosu na ostatak Srbije, zato nam narod mnogo više veruje u Beogradu. Poverenje u ovu gradsku vlast je više od 60 odsto, a u istom tom Beogradu u republičku vlast poverenje ima samo 13 odsto. Ljudima na republičkom nivou je teže pošto ima više nekih ciklusa na koje ne mogu da utiču, ali opet, ta razlika znači da ljudi nešto prepoznaju ovde. Mi smo promenili neke stvari. Ja sam rekao sekretaru za zdravstvo, "tvoje je da kažeš gde treba dom zdravlja, ne da ga gradiš, ti si lekar". Gde treba škola, gde treba obdanište, skupimo to sve u agenciju za investicije, 50 inženjera zaposlimo tamo i oni vode to. Zato u Beogradu imate da se sve uradi u roku, time se bave ljudi koji to znaju, to je jedini način.
http://www.vreme.com/cms/view.php?id=971116
Gradonacelnik o metrou
Metro
Mi ćemo ove i naredne godine da uradimo sve što je neophodno da bi mogli da počnemo da gradimo metro. Rekao sam već više puta, u Beogradu se neće ni uličica ni metro početi da rade da bi se neko slikao i rekao ‘mi sada kopamo’. Nećemo novi Prokop, nećemo nove obilaznice oko Beograda, nećemo kilometre autoputa koji nikako da se završi. Kada počnemo nešto u Beogradu da radimo kažemo "danas počinjemo, ovako se finansira, tada je gotovo", i do sada ništa nismo slagali. I to je prednost Beograda u odnosu na ostatak Srbije, zato nam narod mnogo više veruje u Beogradu. Poverenje u ovu gradsku vlast je više od 60 odsto, a u istom tom Beogradu u republičku vlast poverenje ima samo 13 odsto. Ljudima na republičkom nivou je teže pošto ima više nekih ciklusa na koje ne mogu da utiču, ali opet, ta razlika znači da ljudi nešto prepoznaju ovde. Mi smo promenili neke stvari. Ja sam rekao sekretaru za zdravstvo, "tvoje je da kažeš gde treba dom zdravlja, ne da ga gradiš, ti si lekar". Gde treba škola, gde treba obdanište, skupimo to sve u agenciju za investicije, 50 inženjera zaposlimo tamo i oni vode to. Zato u Beogradu imate da se sve uradi u roku, time se bave ljudi koji to znaju, to je jedini način.
http://www.vreme.com/cms/view.php?id=971116
panci grade metro i Koridor 11?
20. januar 2011. | 16:23 | Izvor: Tanjug
Quote:
Beograd -- Španske firme žele da grade autoput Beograd - Južni Jadran, beogradski metro i da učestvuju u obnovi pruge Beograd - Bar.
Španski ambasador u Srbiji Ignjasio de Palasio Espanja je obavestio ministra Mrkonjića o velikom iskustvu španskih firmi u privatno-javnom partnerstvu i njihovoj spremnosti da se na taj način uključe u izgradnju autoputa Beograd - Južni Jadran.
Ambasador se interesovao i za predstojeću revitalizaciju pruge Beograd-Bar i poslove na železničkom Koridoru 10.
"Španci su po izgrađenim tzv. brzim prugama u samom svetskom vrhu. Izgradili smo u Španiji više od 2.600 kilometara pruga za velike brzine. Na relaciji Madrid -Valensija naši vozovi idu brzinom većom od 300 kilometar na čas“, rekao je on.
Ambasador je preneo i želju španskih građevinara da učestvuju u izgradnji beogradskog metroa kada za to dođe vreme i najavio posetu eksperata iz svoje zemlje Srbiji, koji će pripremiti konkretnu ponudu za svoje učešće u ovdašnjim infrastrukturnim projektima.
Ministar infrastrukture Milutin Mrkonjić je rekao da su španskim građevinarima i privrednicima širom otvorena vrata u Srbiji.
On je kazao da oni odmah mogu da daju svoje predloge oko realizacije putnih i železničkih projekata na Koridoru 10 i autoputu ka Južnom Jadranu, uputivši ih i na razgovor sa crnogorskim ministrom saobraćaja o poslovima koji su od zajedničkih interesa za dve susedne države.
20. januar 2011. | 16:23 | Izvor: Tanjug
Quote:
Beograd -- Španske firme žele da grade autoput Beograd - Južni Jadran, beogradski metro i da učestvuju u obnovi pruge Beograd - Bar.
Španski ambasador u Srbiji Ignjasio de Palasio Espanja je obavestio ministra Mrkonjića o velikom iskustvu španskih firmi u privatno-javnom partnerstvu i njihovoj spremnosti da se na taj način uključe u izgradnju autoputa Beograd - Južni Jadran.
Ambasador se interesovao i za predstojeću revitalizaciju pruge Beograd-Bar i poslove na železničkom Koridoru 10.
"Španci su po izgrađenim tzv. brzim prugama u samom svetskom vrhu. Izgradili smo u Španiji više od 2.600 kilometara pruga za velike brzine. Na relaciji Madrid -Valensija naši vozovi idu brzinom većom od 300 kilometar na čas“, rekao je on.
Ambasador je preneo i želju španskih građevinara da učestvuju u izgradnji beogradskog metroa kada za to dođe vreme i najavio posetu eksperata iz svoje zemlje Srbiji, koji će pripremiti konkretnu ponudu za svoje učešće u ovdašnjim infrastrukturnim projektima.
Ministar infrastrukture Milutin Mrkonjić je rekao da su španskim građevinarima i privrednicima širom otvorena vrata u Srbiji.
On je kazao da oni odmah mogu da daju svoje predloge oko realizacije putnih i železničkih projekata na Koridoru 10 i autoputu ka Južnom Jadranu, uputivši ih i na razgovor sa crnogorskim ministrom saobraćaja o poslovima koji su od zajedničkih interesa za dve susedne države.
Kriza je, metro je dugorocni projekat, Beogradu je potreban i jasno je da ce u narednih nekoliko godina morati da pocne da ga gradi. Ko dobije ovaj posao (cak i ako kada smo mi druga ugovorna strana) usrecio se. Narocito sto smo mi u takvoj poziciji da svako sa kim pregovaramo ima mogucnost da za sebe izvuce najbolje moguce uslove.
Pratio sam u Sofiji kako se odvija izgradnja metro-a.Veoma zanimljivo je sto treca linija koju pokusavaju da im uvale kao lrt slican belamu je naisao na otpor javnosti.A sve je to pocela ekipa ljudi sa bugarskog Skyscrapercity-a i posle kampanje dobila cak i medijski prostor na njihovoj najgledanoj televiziji gde je ukazala na mane lrt-a :kk:
I u njihovom metrou ima deonica na povrsini,mada ih je otprilike oko 20%,a metro je teski bez pantografa.
I u njihovom metrou ima deonica na povrsini,mada ih je otprilike oko 20%,a metro je teski bez pantografa.
Haha...Djelic muva nesto,a gradska vlast to ne odobrava.A evo,na SSC forumu kazu da je bio tender za naucni centar ispod zvezdarske sume danas(onaj napusten od 80tih).Sve to ima veze sa djelicem.
I sta rekose za metro?
I sta rekose za metro?
Metro sve bliži
N. PANTIĆ | 27. januar 2011. 22:06 | Komentara: 0
Sudbina podzemne železnice biće poznata tek nakon potpisivanja strateškog partnerstva Srbije i Francuske. "Paraf" na sporazum mogao bi da stavi predsednik Tadić prilikom posete Parizu
Francuski metro
SRODNE VESTI
Francuzi najbliži metrou
Graditelja metroa "bira" banka
Subotica: Otvoren ”Metro keš & keri”
Metro po meri Beča
Moskva: Ubijen osumnjičeni za napade
SUDBINA beogradskog metroa, kako saznaju "Novosti", najverovatnije će biti poznata u aprilu. Na sastanku predstavnika Srbije i Francuske u četvrtak je dogovoreno da se u narednom periodu "intenzivira rad na potpisivanju ugovora o strateškom partnerstvu". On uključuje i projekat podzemne železnice u Beogradu, a "paraf" na celokupni sporazum trebalo bi da stavi predsednik Srbije Boris Tadić, prilikom posete Francuskoj koja je planirana za april.
Ukoliko ugovor o strateškom partnerstvu bude potpisan (slično kao u slučaju sa Kinezima za most Zemun - Borča) obe strane bi zajednički radile na obezbeđivanju kredita za finansiranje građevinskih radova. Upravo je to bila "kočnica" zbog koje je, kako su "Novosti" pisale, došlo do nesporazuma na relaciji Beograd - Pariz.
Prvobitan plan bio je da Francuzi obezbede novac za finansiranje celokupnog projekta, a da njihove kompanije izvode radove i da se vozovi i oprema kupe u zemlji "galskih petlova". Međutim, oni su se potom predomislili i ponudili donaciju od tri miliona evra za izradu projekta samo prve linije (prvobitno dogovoreno za sve tri), pod uslovom da se vozovi kupe od kompanije "Alstom". U tom slučaju, Srbija i Beograd kredit za građevinske radove morali bi da potraže na drugoj strani.
Francuzi su, takođe, pored donacije zatražili od srpske prestonice da kompaniji EGIS uplati 600.000 evra za izradu projekta. Međutim, na sastanku sa predstavnicima firme "Alstom" navedeno je da se ovaj uslov "nikako ne može prihvatiti" bez sprovođenja tenderske procedure, tako da je precizirano da se ova novčana sredstva obezbede na drugi način.
Do sastanka je došlo i zbog obraćanja gradonačelnika Beograda Dragana Đilasa ambasadoru Francuske. Jer, podsetimo, on je uputio pismo u kome je, zbog novog uslovljavanja, obavestio francuskog diplomatu da će srpska prestonica ući u raspisivanje tendera za izradu projekta prve linije ukoliko se ne nađe prihvatljivo rešenje.
OD LIONA DO KALKUTE
TOKOM sastanka zaključeno je da francuska strana ima dosta iskustva kada je reč o izgradnji metroa, što je garancija za zatvaranje finansijske konstrukcije i sigurnu izgradnju prve linije podzemne železnice. Inače, firma "Alstom" bila je uklučena u izgradnju metroa u Lionu, Marseju, Parizu, Kalkuti, Vijetnamu, Maroku, Kazahstanu...
http://novosti.rs/vesti/beograd.74.html:316875-Metro-sve-blizi
N. PANTIĆ | 27. januar 2011. 22:06 | Komentara: 0
Sudbina podzemne železnice biće poznata tek nakon potpisivanja strateškog partnerstva Srbije i Francuske. "Paraf" na sporazum mogao bi da stavi predsednik Tadić prilikom posete Parizu
Francuski metro
SRODNE VESTI
Francuzi najbliži metrou
Graditelja metroa "bira" banka
Subotica: Otvoren ”Metro keš & keri”
Metro po meri Beča
Moskva: Ubijen osumnjičeni za napade
SUDBINA beogradskog metroa, kako saznaju "Novosti", najverovatnije će biti poznata u aprilu. Na sastanku predstavnika Srbije i Francuske u četvrtak je dogovoreno da se u narednom periodu "intenzivira rad na potpisivanju ugovora o strateškom partnerstvu". On uključuje i projekat podzemne železnice u Beogradu, a "paraf" na celokupni sporazum trebalo bi da stavi predsednik Srbije Boris Tadić, prilikom posete Francuskoj koja je planirana za april.
Ukoliko ugovor o strateškom partnerstvu bude potpisan (slično kao u slučaju sa Kinezima za most Zemun - Borča) obe strane bi zajednički radile na obezbeđivanju kredita za finansiranje građevinskih radova. Upravo je to bila "kočnica" zbog koje je, kako su "Novosti" pisale, došlo do nesporazuma na relaciji Beograd - Pariz.
Prvobitan plan bio je da Francuzi obezbede novac za finansiranje celokupnog projekta, a da njihove kompanije izvode radove i da se vozovi i oprema kupe u zemlji "galskih petlova". Međutim, oni su se potom predomislili i ponudili donaciju od tri miliona evra za izradu projekta samo prve linije (prvobitno dogovoreno za sve tri), pod uslovom da se vozovi kupe od kompanije "Alstom". U tom slučaju, Srbija i Beograd kredit za građevinske radove morali bi da potraže na drugoj strani.
Francuzi su, takođe, pored donacije zatražili od srpske prestonice da kompaniji EGIS uplati 600.000 evra za izradu projekta. Međutim, na sastanku sa predstavnicima firme "Alstom" navedeno je da se ovaj uslov "nikako ne može prihvatiti" bez sprovođenja tenderske procedure, tako da je precizirano da se ova novčana sredstva obezbede na drugi način.
Do sastanka je došlo i zbog obraćanja gradonačelnika Beograda Dragana Đilasa ambasadoru Francuske. Jer, podsetimo, on je uputio pismo u kome je, zbog novog uslovljavanja, obavestio francuskog diplomatu da će srpska prestonica ući u raspisivanje tendera za izradu projekta prve linije ukoliko se ne nađe prihvatljivo rešenje.
OD LIONA DO KALKUTE
TOKOM sastanka zaključeno je da francuska strana ima dosta iskustva kada je reč o izgradnji metroa, što je garancija za zatvaranje finansijske konstrukcije i sigurnu izgradnju prve linije podzemne železnice. Inače, firma "Alstom" bila je uklučena u izgradnju metroa u Lionu, Marseju, Parizu, Kalkuti, Vijetnamu, Maroku, Kazahstanu...
http://novosti.rs/vesti/beograd.74.html:316875-Metro-sve-blizi
Колико ја видим они уопште нису оспорили захтев да Французи у основи добију нешто без тендера - јал’ возове, јал’ грађевинске радове. То је потпуно ван памети. Они нама ”донацију” од три милиона (за нешто што вероватно вреди пола те суме или мање), а ми онда од њих без надметања купимо нешто што кошта 100 или 500 или 1000 милиона - и наравно платимо бар 20% више од цене коју бисмо добили кад би се фирме надметале за посао.
То је све заједно циркус. Тражити донацију за израду пројекта (који је у основи грешка у заокруживању у односу на изградњу) показује да наручилац уопште није озбиљан. Ако ти пројекат има 2% мање саобраћајне и урбанистичке ефекте него што би могао када би био оптимално урађен, дугорочна штета ће бити вишеструко већа од износа тзв. ”донације” - а ”донатор” ће овде (као и обично) бити у жестоком сукобу интереса.
Мислим да се слажем са претходним постом - сада ћемо годину или две да гулимо тај тзв. пројекат, а онда опет неће бити ништа јер, ето, нема пара (а и питање је да ли ће пројекат нешто ваљати јер ће вероватно бити урађен левом ногом).
То је све заједно циркус. Тражити донацију за израду пројекта (који је у основи грешка у заокруживању у односу на изградњу) показује да наручилац уопште није озбиљан. Ако ти пројекат има 2% мање саобраћајне и урбанистичке ефекте него што би могао када би био оптимално урађен, дугорочна штета ће бити вишеструко већа од износа тзв. ”донације” - а ”донатор” ће овде (као и обично) бити у жестоком сукобу интереса.
Мислим да се слажем са претходним постом - сада ћемо годину или две да гулимо тај тзв. пројекат, а онда опет неће бити ништа јер, ето, нема пара (а и питање је да ли ће пројекат нешто ваљати јер ће вероватно бити урађен левом ногом).
JohnyBgood
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Jos samo da zamene i stanovnike/putnike robotima i super! Nece im trebati ni WCi nego samo utikaci da se dopune.2012":1mtbynh7 je napisao(la):
