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Železnička Stanica Beograd Centar, Prokop - [ Železnica ]

boca-ica":10qoy8bu je napisao(la):
Konkord kao fenomenalan avion uništen je na taj način što je iskorišćena situacija da se aerodrom našao u gradu pa je to bila okosnica -buka- nj. uništenja , i ako je bolji nego Boing ali lobi je čudo. Inače za neke koje ne znaju Konkord jednom je sleteo oko 1982 na aerodrom Beograd isto gledao sam sletanje i onog najvećeg Ruskog aviona oko 1998 Te teško da to bude u centru.
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Конкорд је уништила највише његова неисплативост. У питању су били стари авиони, ужасно скупи за одржавање, који су по путнику (имали су мали капацитет) трошили тридесетак пута више горива него, на пример, џамбо-џет. Бука је била успутна исприка, као и пад у Паризу, који је само био повод за његово укидање. Руси су много раније схватили да се суперсонични авиони још увек не исплате, тако да је Тупољев 144 летео само пар година.

Иначе, врло занимљиви подаци да су на београдски аеродром могли да слете и Конкорд и, ако сам добро схватио, Антонов "Руслан" (џамбо-џет може без проблема да слети, а када је ЈАТ куповао широкотрупни авион, ДЦ-10 је однео победу над џамбо-џетом). За та два авиона заиста нисам знао да су слетали код нас. Којим поводом се то дешавало?
 
Odosmo u OF
Zaboravi sam povod ... mislim da je Ruski avion zvao drugačije imao je neki broj (šta ću godine..)
Ajd da se vratimo iz OFa
baš me interesuje tvoje viđenje oko ranžirne stanice Makiš u odnosu na gore napisano, bez obzira dali je isto ili suprotno.
 
Wile E. Coyote":2icoisbh je napisao(la):
boca-ica":2icoisbh je napisao(la):
Konkord kao fenomenalan avion uništen je na taj način što je iskorišćena situacija da se aerodrom našao u gradu pa je to bila okosnica -buka- nj. uništenja , i ako je bolji nego Boing ali lobi je čudo. Inače za neke koje ne znaju Konkord jednom je sleteo oko 1982 na aerodrom Beograd isto gledao sam sletanje i onog najvećeg Ruskog aviona oko 1998 Te teško da to bude u centru.
Kliknite za proširenje...
Конкорд је уништила највише његова неисплативост. У питању су били стари авиони, ужасно скупи за одржавање, који су по путнику (имали су мали капацитет) трошили тридесетак пута више горива него, на пример, џамбо-џет. Бука је била успутна исприка, као и пад у Паризу, који је само био повод за његово укидање. Руси су много раније схватили да се суперсонични авиони још увек не исплате, тако да је Тупољев 144 летео само пар година.

Иначе, врло занимљиви подаци да су на београдски аеродром могли да слете и Конкорд и, ако сам добро схватио, Антонов "Руслан" (џамбо-џет може без проблема да слети, а када је ЈАТ куповао широкотрупни авион, ДЦ-10 је однео победу над џамбо-џетом). За та два авиона заиста нисам знао да су слетали код нас. Којим поводом се то дешавало?
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Nazalost ekonomija je uzasna kucka.Stoji da je kapacitet+uzasna potrosnja goriva bili krivci.

Ne toliko buka,a onaj pad je bio zbog tocka ili bese dela drugog aviona koji je poleteo pre njega,secam se tog dokumentarca.

Zanimljivo je kako zahvaljujuci kapitalizmu zapravo vise idemo ka socijalizmu da se sto vise preveze za manje para umesto da bude obratno.

Izvinjavam se na offu.
 
Wile E. Coyote":2x443ajx je napisao(la):
boca-ica":2x443ajx je napisao(la):
Konkord kao fenomenalan avion uništen je na taj način što je iskorišćena situacija da se aerodrom našao u gradu pa je to bila okosnica -buka- nj. uništenja , i ako je bolji nego Boing ali lobi je čudo. Inače za neke koje ne znaju Konkord jednom je sleteo oko 1982 na aerodrom Beograd isto gledao sam sletanje i onog najvećeg Ruskog aviona oko 1998 Te teško da to bude u centru.
Kliknite za proširenje...
Конкорд је уништила највише његова неисплативост. У питању су били стари авиони, ужасно скупи за одржавање, који су по путнику (имали су мали капацитет) трошили тридесетак пута више горива него, на пример, џамбо-џет. Бука је била успутна исприка, као и пад у Паризу, који је само био повод за његово укидање. Руси су много раније схватили да се суперсонични авиони још увек не исплате, тако да је Тупољев 144 летео само пар година.

Иначе, врло занимљиви подаци да су на београдски аеродром могли да слете и Конкорд и, ако сам добро схватио, Антонов "Руслан" (џамбо-џет може без проблема да слети, а када је ЈАТ куповао широкотрупни авион, ДЦ-10 је однео победу над џамбо-џетом). За та два авиона заиста нисам знао да су слетали код нас. Којим поводом се то дешавало?
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Wile zar je moguce da nisi video ovu fotku

http://www.beg.aero/upload/images/wallpapers/1024x768/Antonov_An_124_Ruslan.jpg

Ovo je povodom onih bogatasa i besnih kola sto su prolazili kroz srbiju
Bio je skoro
 
Dobro veče!

I don't speak Serbian :-( could you help me with some questions about Prokop / Centar station?
1) How many tracks and platforms are planned for Prokop station?
2) How many tracks and platforms afe finished and working?
3) What is the status of works? Did the Prokop station get the Russian loan? When the negotiations are expected to finish?
4) When the works on the station are expected to finish?
5) When the station building is to be build? Will it be build from Russian loan?
6) Is the government and city council financing construction?

Some questions about BG:VOZ.
7) Who operates BG:VOZ? Железнице Србије?
8) Is the BG:VOZ line to Zemun and Batajnica already extended? If not - when is it planned?
9) I have read that BG:VOZ is the "first phase" of metro system. What is the connection between BG:VOZ and planned metro?
10) Existing Vukov spomenik underground station was supposed to be part of the initially planned metro system or new railway junction?

Я могу написать вопросы по-русский (или по-польский ;)).

Hvala! Хвала!
 
Hi witeku. For questions 1 and 2 I am not sure. But the rest I can answer.

1) I believe 10 tracks.
2) I believe right now it's 2 tracks, 1 platform, which is used for Beovoz/BG:Voz.

3) The status is that the works required for the full functioning of BG:Voz have been completed, and not much more than that. If you look back at some pages in this topic, you will see pictures of the latest progress.
4) Who knows? When the first Serb goes to space, or maybe later. For the Russian loan - no, it did not get it yet, and no, nobody really knows what is going on with that. Here we all wish we knew.
5) Also unknown. As far as I know, the "station building" is the thing you will see in the pictures in this topic, that is the platforms and tracks. The roof of the station building is a flat concrete block, on top of which, according to the latest plan, a shopping centre or something like this will be built.
6) The City financed the works relating to BG:Voz. The rest is up to Zeleznice Srbije, that is, the national government.

7) Zeleznice Srbije operates BG:Voz under what is apparently quite a strict contract with the City of Belgrade. This is unlike its predecessor, Beovoz, which was solely under the jurisdiction of ZS and therefore insanely unreliable.
8) No. It is planned in the first half of this year.
9) BG:Voz is not a metro system. BG:Voz is commuter rail, like S-Bahn or RER. When someone calls BG:Voz a "metro", it's to attempt to fool the public and obscure the fact that in Belgrade we have been talking about the metro since the 1960s without actually laying a single cm of track for it. BG:Voz, i.e. the railway junction, is planned to intersect with the metro (more or less in all the different plans presented over the years) in several places. One of them is Prokop, where as far as I know already a "cassette" than can be used for metro station construction has been built (when work on the station first started). Another planned intersection is Vukov spomenik station. Some metro plans also have the two systems intersecting at Novi Beograd railway station, and I think also at one station in Zemun.
10) Vukov spomenik is supposed to be both a metro station and a station of the railway junction. Only the station for the railway junction has been built. According to plans, the metro station should be built next to it with a corridor connecting the two.

Here you can find plans of proposed systems for the Belgrade metro. The big map is the project from 1976 which was adopted by the City and was supposed to be built. It has plans for both city metro ("metro") and commuter rail ("regionalni metro"). As you can see this plan envisions something like BG:Voz not using the railway junction, but being its own independent system.

In the 1980s this plan was abandoned by shortsighted politicians, who instead implemented the "Tram for the 21st century" project, extending the tram system throughout the city (the full plan was never implemented due to war in the 1990s) instead of building the metro. Also, the regional metro was axed and instead we got Beovoz, using the railway junction.

In early 2000s, a plan was adopted (that is still official on paper, but de facto has been also abandoned) for an LRT system called the "Belgrade Light Metro" (Belam). Here is a map: http://www.beoland.com/LRT/pic/sema_metroa.jpg This is just basically a glorified tram system that has some stations undeground - it is not even fully grade-separated from traffic along the whole route. You can see both in the 1976 metro and Belam intersections in Prokop, Vukov spomenik, and Novi Beograd with the railway junction.
 
i think that there is a tunnel for metro station in Vukov spomenik, i'm not sure, behind the relief on the wall towards Bulevar
 
Thank you!

Some further questions to what you wrote:

11) When Prokop station was initially scheduled to be opened (according to the first plans)?
12) When Prokop station was opened? When the first trains served the station?
13) What kind of trains serve the BG:VOZ line? Is the line popular?
14) Do you know what is the future of Beovoz?
15) Do you think that the railway junction is functional? It seems that the existing stations in the centre are far from interesting points...
16) You wrote about BELAM concept. But I have read that the current mayor prefers heavy metro in accordance to plans from 70s. Is that true? Is BELAM abandoned?
 
11) back in the 80s
12) 'round 92
13) RVR ŽS Clas 412. as far as i've seen not as much as it should be
14) noone knows that
15) i don't know, someone else will answer this
16) as far as Đilas is concerned, BELAM is history
 
JohnnyLee":3g9ng3au je napisao(la):
11) back in the 80s
12) 'round 92
13) RVR ŽS Clas 412. as far as i've seen not as much as it should be
14) noone knows that
15) i don't know, someone else will answer this
16) as far as Đilas is concerned, BELAM is history
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Kada je Djilas rekao da se napusta BELAM? Bilo bi dobro, BG-u treba pravi metro.
 
Djilas didn't say that he left BELAM,he only upgraded it so if it's ever built it will be without interstections with road traffic,but the it will still be mainly over ground and with a pantograph and not a third rail.
 
11) 1st May 1979
12) 1992. when Beovoz began operating

14) I think it looks like Beovoz will be phased out as the BG:Voz network grows. One unknown is the following: Beovoz connects also surrounding towns with Belgrade (Pancevo, Indjija, Pazova etc.) but the Belgrade council has said it will only finance reconstruction work and operations within the city limits. I think the door is open to have BG:Voz to neighbouring towns if they agree to share the cost, but this is not known exactly.
15) The railway station does not need to be in the middle of the town. I mean the airport is far from interesting points, but it is functional. Assuming one day passenger trains start using Prokop and Novi Beograd (NBG) station instead of the present old main station, you can leave the train and then catch BG:Voz (every 15 minutes) that can take you basically to any corner of the city - the stations are well-distributed (for example, I would not say Vukov Spomenik is far from interesting points, and Prokop is only 2 km from the inner centre of the city). After that, it's about how well the stations are connected to public transit. With a metro, it would be great, but even without a metro, they can be connected well.
16) Belam is still in the official plans, i.e. the General Urban Plan (GUP) of the city for 2021. So when things are done according to the GUP, they are done in fact to accomodate Belam. For example, when the tram tracks were reconstructed lately, the tram "islands" were made wide enough to accomodate Belam trains. But yes, in reality, the specific project called Belam is dead, because Djilas stated and more or less everybody agreed, that we need a 100% grade-separate system. However we still do not know whether the future system (if there is one at all) will be more like a LRT or more like a heavy metro, i.e. whether it will be more similar to Belam or more similar to the 1976 metro. Djilas did state what you said at first, but then he later gave conflicting statements, for example he said he favoured a metro like the U6 line in Vienna (which is basically a fully grade separated LRT) and talked about building the NBG portion of the metro on elevated tracks rather than below ground, unlike in the 1976 plan. But all his statements are basically very vague and unclear.
 
Thanks once more!

Dear hazard - you are right, the station doesn't have to be in the middle of the town. In fact I think that when the complex of buildings over and around the station is finished, it might be popular. My point wasn't precise. When I wrote about functionality, I was more thinking about the role of the railway junction in municipal (city) transport. Vukov spomenik is actually quite well located - I don't know whether other stations, as fas as the inner city transport is concerned, are optimally located.

17) Did anything come out of the project "Tram for the 21st century"? Any new routes?
18) How is the BG:VOZ route doing under the cooperation with ZS? Popular among passengers? No technical problems, delays, cancellation of services (as I remember Zeleznice Srbije)?
19) I have read that a provision for LRT was made on the Ada bridge. Will the tracks be connected to the tram system or will they form new LRT route? As I understand, the bridge is now under construction with tracks, so there should be a decision.
20) Finally, are there any official decisions concerning metro? I mean are there any official statements of the City Council or the Mayor - e.g. official start of route planning or technical details? What is happening now in the subject of metro / LRT?
 
17) i think that what you is that project
18) everythnig works as a clockwork
19) tram system, probably
20) no. there are various talks and rumors, but nothing concretely
 
JohnnyLee":mux9nb1m je napisao(la):
po svim planovima iz 60ih, glavna železnička je Novi Beograd:
http://unkool.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/urbplannbgdpicture2jg3.gif
http://unkool.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/urbplannbg1962cs9.gif
http://unkool.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/f_blagojevic1m_ce41a74.jpg
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AirBelgrade2.png


Lici malo :gobb:
 
Well, in that case you have a point. One, keep in mind the junction was not originally designed with suburban/municipal traffic in mind, that was supposed to be the task of the "regional metro". It is even questionable if the railway junction becomes fully utilized (i.e. Prokop is finished and all the passenger and cargo traffic switches to the new junction) whether it has the capacity to sustain alongside the "regular" traffic an urban/suburban system with very frequent (every 15 mins.) service. I'm talking mainly about the tunnels, in comparison it is easy to lay extra tracks on surface sections. Right now I think the system is very useful for people who need to go from suburbs (i.e. stations Batajnica, Rakovica, and so forth) and neighbouring towns (Pancevo, Pazova) to the city centre and back of course, and also for people who want to go quickly from one suburb to another, and it's a shame it is not utilised more in this regard. However for travel within the urban core of the city, the usefulness is limited. On the other hand, it is a cycle: if more people start using it, then development around the stations will happen, and they will become more useful, while of course you need something there in the first place to attract the people.

17) Yes, the tram system was approximately doubled. For the first time since WW2 trams started going over the river (but this time to New Belgrade, not Zemun like before WW2). The entire tram network in New Belgrade is a product of the "tram for the 21st century" project. Other major extensions were to the inner suburbs of Banjica (from the preexisting Vozdovac terminus) and Banovo Brdo (branching off from the line for Topcider). Also there were minor extensions too, where the lines were extended by a station or two. The plan also called for more new lines, for example renewing the line to Zemun, and constructing a line along the Danube to Karaburma, but due to the 1990s situation this never happened.

18) At first it functioned very well and on time. Now, I don't know. There is a BG:VOZ topic on the forum "Javni prevoz", where people who use and follow it more closely are discussing it often. You could ask there.

19) For now it seems like they will just put tram tracks in the middle of the bridge and have a new tram line from Banovo Brdo to New Belgrade, as a "temporary" solution (in Serbia all temporary solutions inevitably become permanent) until a decision about the metro is made. I mean, even a decision on the metro would be made tomorrow, the line which would go over the Ada bridge would not be constructed for another 6-10 years minimum.

20) No official decision. Lately there's some talk about doing a project with the French, who apparently wish to finance a study into the metro for Belgrade, but have attached some silly conditions (like that Belgrade should promise to buy Alstom trains without a tender). But that is all very much all in the air right now.
 
@Wile E. Coyote
Hajde zbog moguceg propusta da ponovo napišem iz svog jučerašnjih postova
,, voleo bih da pročitam i tvoje viđenje vezano za ranžirnu stanicu u Makišu, bez obzira da li se mišljenja slažu ili su suprotna.
@Vucko
isto bih voleo i tvoje mi[ljenje da procitam ovde ali sa ekoloskog aspekta

hvala i jednom i drugom u napred

ovo nije OF jer je sve povezano i sa prokopom :rolleyes:

Edit
@Jovanov
,,To sto nemamo zove se prokop,,
hm hm hm lepo napisano 2-3 nivoa ispod zemlje gde se denivelisano ukršta šinski podzemni saobracaj
i dalje to nemamo, više puta sam prepešačio Prokop i sve je u jednom nivou (šine) niti ima denivelisanog ukrštanja
pozz :)
 
I would like to get the things with Prokop station straight. Am I correct?
In the 1990s and 2000s there was a proposal to construct the station in public-private partnership (PPP), but the contractor had bigger and bigger demands. The agreement was broken and ZS signed an agreement with a second company - Energoprojekt. But the country governement didn't agree with handing over the grounds over the Prokop station to private investor. Finally it was agreed that the state will pay Energoprojekt for completion of works at the station and Beograd city will build the connection roads (and the business and trade complex will be another stage). And now it turns out that the state doesn't have enough funds for finishing the works at the station and that is why a Russian loan is taken under consideration? Did I get it correctly?
 
Имам једно (вероватно) глупо питање. Да ли би ЕМВ-ови, којима је Прокоп почетна станица, а иду у супротном смеру, могли да деле колосек? На пример, линије Прокоп-Батајница и Прокоп-Ресник. Перони су преко 300м, а четвороделни ЕМВ је око 100м.
 
@witeku

Welcome to Beobuild, where it crosses the earth and sky Belgrade :)
 
Prvi post na temi 9.2.2007.A od tada nista nije uradjeno osim dva koloseka za bg voz :(
 
boca-ica":1o4joa7a je napisao(la):
@Wile E. Coyote
Hajde zbog moguceg propusta da ponovo napišem iz svog jučerašnjih postova
,, voleo bih da pročitam i tvoje viđenje vezano za ranžirnu stanicu u Makišu, bez obzira da li se mišljenja slažu ili su suprotna.
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Искрено говорећи, о Макишу никад нисам нешто претерано размишљао, јер сам га увек доживљавао као ранжирну станицу. Нема баш много становништва које тамо гравитира и питање је да ли би вредело провлачити тамо путнички саобраћај.
 
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